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MauEvig In reply to BluNight101 [2014-01-20 13:25:14 +0000 UTC]

You're right it's not. However, since a fetus is not a conscious being, is completely dependent on the mother's body, and is not an individual person (essentially a parasite), I do not consider it murder any more than I would consider it man slaughter on the baby's part if the baby being born resulted in the mother's death. Until it's completely developed and independent of the womb, it's not a full fledged human being, and therefore not murder.

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BluNight101 In reply to MauEvig [2014-01-20 17:46:55 +0000 UTC]

It is a human being. Even if it is not completely ready to take its first breath on its own it still has a beating heart. And who knows, that "fetus" may grow up to the the best president ever, or find the cure to cancer, or end world hunger. You have no idea what you're doing when you kill the innocent child. The mother should feel ashamed for murdering her own child just to make her life "better".  

You and I were both in a womb, we were both "fetus'", now here we are. Humans with our own minds and our own opinions. How can you look at that so plainly and say that the fetus is just a parasite that will only bring sorrow to the mother? How can you be that heartless? 

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MauEvig In reply to BluNight101 [2014-01-20 18:03:59 +0000 UTC]

That heart is beating only because the mother's body is allowing it to beat, it doesn't have any brain function. A person is considered clinically dead if their brain function stops, so a heart beat means nothing. Plenty of animals have heart beats and people have no problem killing those.
As for your who knows what that "fetus" might grow up to be argument, they can just as easily grow up to be the next Adolf Hitler, Stalin, Saddam Hussein, or worse.
Most people who undergo an abortion have done all the research, so it's obvious they do know what they are doing. There is nothing innocent about something that leeches off the woman's body, energy and resources.
Now I'm not about to say every single woman in the world so go out and have an abortion. Yes I was a fetus once, but I had no choice in the matter about being born did I? To live or to die is clearly the woman's choice. If my mother had aborted me, it wouldn't matter. I would not be a conscious being with a soul to care one way or the other, because any brain development I might have had to feel anything would have diminished before I was sentient so it would not have mattered all that much. Therefore, I wouldn't care because I would have had no mind to care one way or the other.
For a woman who wants a baby, I'm sure that baby would bring joy to her. But what about the woman who does not want the baby? Suppose she's too young and not ready for a child? Throw the kid in foster care so they can be tossed around by people who might abuse or rape the kid? Speaking of rape, what if the woman was raped? Should she give birth to a child who might look just like her rapist so she can forever be tormented and reminded of what had happened? Something like that might even drive her to kill or abuse the child. Suppose a couple already has enough kids to support, and having another baby could bring them below the poverty line with costs and expenses? Suppose there's a lot of mentally unstable people in that family with lots of health or emotional problems? Would it be right or fair to bring a so-called innocent baby into such an environment where they are going to grow up with anxiety and depression? Suppose people just can't afford the child with their incomes? Maybe they have also come to the conclusion that they wouldn't be very good at parenting. Honestly, that's the conclusion I've come to, I rather have my cats than have to worry about taking care of a child especially since I'm low income and can barely support myself let alone a child.
On the other end of the spectrum, what about the woman who may have wanted a baby, but had to abort because the baby would have been born without a brain, mentally retarded, or perhaps the baby would have killed her in child birth had she undergone the entire birth? Maybe that baby would have not survived anyway?
There are so many what ifs you can think about. Now I realize birth control is an option, and there's plenty of options out there. But unfortunately, condoms break, pills fail, and sometimes an abortion is necessary in those circumstances.
But it's obvious that you are thinking only of the fetus and not how the woman feels. You rather support something that feels nothing, and leeches off a woman, while the woman has feelings, and may be a contributing member of society, or maybe she's a teenager who has her whole life ahead of her. So how could YOU be so heartless to take her choice away?

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BluNight101 In reply to MauEvig [2014-01-20 21:58:26 +0000 UTC]

Youre an asshole who hates people. Thats all I have to say. 

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The-Last-Sea-Serpent In reply to BluNight101 [2014-01-30 03:11:13 +0000 UTC]

You're a moron who should have been aborted for the good of the planet. That's all I have to say.

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PeteSeeger In reply to Kaito-DreamMaster [2014-01-11 08:15:38 +0000 UTC]

Then why isn't heroin legal? If it's "their own body" shouldn't people be free to do with as they please?

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MauEvig In reply to Nerudan18 [2013-05-20 22:22:48 +0000 UTC]

I'm sorry I don't get the point you're trying to make.

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Nerudan18 In reply to MauEvig [2013-05-21 14:14:38 +0000 UTC]

It means you can't call pro-life 'unconstitutional' when we're exercising our given rights.

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MauEvig In reply to Nerudan18 [2013-05-21 16:02:16 +0000 UTC]

Is that so? How is taking the rights away from women a given right?

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Nerudan18 In reply to MauEvig [2013-05-22 00:55:46 +0000 UTC]

I meant you can't take away our right to express our opinion or to demonstrate. But to answer your question: true rights do not infringe upon the lives of others. No one has a right to commit murder.

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MauEvig In reply to Nerudan18 [2013-05-22 01:07:18 +0000 UTC]

You're right about one thing, it's wrong to take away one's right to express an opinion. However, no one's taking away your opinion. You can feel free to have a pro-life opinion if you want to. I also have a right to disagree with that opinion, as I feel the pro-life stance takes away a woman's right to have control over her own body and no one has a right to determine that a woman absolutely MUST use her body as an incubator. Abortion is not murder because the unborn is infringing upon her body if she doesn't want it there, and it's not sentient. If you had another organism growing inside your body and you didn't want it there, wouldn't you want to remove it too?
Also by the logic that abortion is murder, then a miscarriage must be manslaughter. Also, if the birth of a baby kills the mother, then technically the baby should be tried for murder too. Of course, that logic doesn't sound like it makes much sense does it? Well, so does the logic that a woman must become a slave to the baby/fetus/zygote/whateveryouwannacallit growing inside her.

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Nerudan18 In reply to MauEvig [2013-05-22 01:54:11 +0000 UTC]

Of course you do, fine sir. Such is the beauty of the 1st amendment.

As for the issue at hand, let me start by saying that pro-life has never been about turning women into incubators. The idea that being anti-abortion makes you a sexist prick is the result of the industry's long marketing campaign, combined with a healthy amount of guilt-tripping and arm-twisting. (Not that you necessarily engage in these things, I'm sure.) On a different tangent, how does opposing a practice that has killed 300 million Asian girls for sexist reasons make being pro-life anti-woman?

Perhaps I can help you. Babies in the womb are, in fact, sentinent. They can feel pain at 12 weeks. Their heart starts to beat at 30 days. They react to their mother and father's voices. They move in the womb. They even masturbate. If mom was depressed while being pregnant, so too is her baby. Does that suffice?

Mostly because it is nonlogic twisted out context. Heaven forbid I would like to see promiscuous men and women take some responsibility. If they don't want it so bad, there's adoption. And before you tell me that doesn't work, get this: there are more parents on the domestic waiting list than there are children available.

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MauEvig In reply to Nerudan18 [2013-05-22 04:41:32 +0000 UTC]

Sir? I'm actually a woman, so the ability to choose whether or not I would want to keep something that's growing inside of me is a personal decision, no one has the right to interfere with that decision. Not even the government. If we protect the "fetus" which cannot make any decisions for itself, and is not aware of anything going on outside the womb, and it's completely reliant upon the woman for survival, then we are denying the woman's right to her own life. You might think that's selfish, but do you think the woman who was raped, or the woman who could die from child birth, (which often means the unborn child is likely to die as well anyway, so there's nothing to save) should not have an abortion either?
I'm not saying women should be forced into having an abortion, because that's just as wrong as forcing women not to undergo an abortion. If the practice has killed those girls, it's very likely it was because it was not done in a clean safe environment. If we make abortion illegal, it won't stop abortion, but it will create more deaths of women that could've been avoided, because we'd have to go back to methods such as the clothes hanger, or trying to nearly kill ourselves to force a miscarriage.
I don't know where you got your sources, but evidence has suggested that a fetus actually cannot feel pain until the 28th week nor is it conscious. If a woman is depressed while being pregnant, maybe it's because she cannot find an abortion. [link]
Many men and women who do have consensual sex do use some type of contraceptive or protection to prevent a pregnancy. They would not have used these methods to prevent a pregnancy if they really wanted one. If that fails, then abortion should be an option. I also don't feel that we women should be guilt tripped into going through a pregnancy just because someone else wants a child. Adoption should be an option sure, but do you really want to add to the 115,000 children in the United States (500,000 in the world) that are already up for adoption? The foster care system is also known to be abusive. Personally, I'd rather be aborted than be unwanted, and when you think about it, none of us chose to be born either.
I'd also like to add that abortion is actually safer for a woman than going through natural childbirth. Even if a woman doesn't die during the birth, there's a possibility that permanent damage can occur to her body. Most abortions happen early on in the pregnancy and this is way before the fetus can respond to anything.

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MauEvig In reply to Treefelow [2013-02-07 03:14:23 +0000 UTC]

That "body" is using the woman's body to survive. It absolutely has no rights. Until it is conscious and breathing outside the woman's womb, it is not a separate and individual person yet. Since it is using her body to survive and has no rights, a woman has every right to do with it as she wants.
By that logic, then a tape worm has as much rights as a human being does, as it would be slave to my decision to have it removed would it not?
Would you really argue that another living being that is using the body of that person has equal rights as the host? If we make abortion illegal, then we're basically saying the fetus has more of a right to live than the woman does, even if that fetus results in the woman's death upon birth. So it's REALLY about who has the rights here, the woman or the fetus? You cannot pick both.

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Treefelow In reply to MauEvig [2013-02-07 16:49:07 +0000 UTC]

By that Logic, We are all tape worms right? haha. your crazy in a fun to debate with kind of way. Dose a tape worm develop into a person? Is a tape worm created by two people a male and a female? I would acknowledge your point if it was an intelligent response. As soon as the sperm meets the egg life begins to from my friend. Do i think abortion is murder? Yes it is unethical.That life inside a female has as much rights to live as you do. Do i think abortion should be legal? Well is shooting your neighbor legal? I had established we both have sufficient Claims to uphold out points and that we are both wrong and right in our own ways.

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MauEvig In reply to Treefelow [2013-02-07 17:15:56 +0000 UTC]

Actually yes, in a sense. Perhaps not literally, but all human beings are parasites in one shape way or form, the tape worm was simply an example. But I disgress, how is abortion murder if it isn't even a fully developed human being? It's no more a human being than an egg is a chicken. If it is murder, then we should also assume that a miscarriage is manslaughter. It's a potential human being, but not a human being yet. Unless that fetus can survive on it's own without the nutriants and body of the mother, it's not an individual person yet. It's not an individual life. It's completely dependent on her body, so she should have a right to remove it if she wants.
Tell me, just how exactly does something have as much rights as the woman does if it is relying on the woman in order to survive? It's a little different with my neighbor because my neighbor doesn't have to rely on another person's body in order to survive, and they aren't doing anything to harm my body. If that person attached themselves to my body and started using that body to survive without my permission, that would be a different story would it not? Pregnancy can cause several problems for women, many of which are irreversable and in some cases, even death. Yes even that can happen despite advanced medical processes. Do you still think abortion is murder if the abortion meant saving the life of the woman carrying the fetus?
You don't have to like abortion, but would you prefer that women do so under extreme circumstances, such as a coat hanger in a back alley way where she could potentially harm herself and bleed to death, or in a safe clean environment like a hospital? Making abortion illegal doesn't stop abortion. It'll still happen, the problem is more women will die as a result, and not a single fetus will be saved. I'm perfectly fine if people want to carry the baby to term, that's their choice. They should also have the choice to terminate a pregnancy if they want to.
Also let me point out that if the fetus has equal rights to an adult human being, then by that logic the fetus should be arrested if a birth results in the woman's death.

Also let me point out that by degrading another person's arguement, it shoots down your credibility. You're attacking the opponent instead of the argument by doing that, which by the way, is called an Ad hominem.

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Treefelow In reply to MauEvig [2013-02-08 14:48:29 +0000 UTC]

I would not call the relationship a parasitic relationship. I would say it is more of a mutualistic relationship. Now remember this argument is opinion and moral based. In turn for you carrying the child, you procreate, thus continuing your legacy. Now when do you benefit from this? Well not only will your family continue to grow and benefit the world along the way, You also have someone that cares for you, loves you and when you are old and need help they will be there. Ah now why is abortion murder? I absolutely love this question. I could draw out a whole chart to show you how many people you just stopped from living. Well let us start with the child that is aborted. This life has the right to live. Just as you also have the same right. In my opinion a new life is made when the sperm fertilizes the egg. This is because the life begins to grow and form into a baby which is then birthed. We all know this, But that child will then grow as we did and affect the world around them as they grow. Until the person finally decide to procreate, if they do so choose to. They will also have children their children will grow and the chain continues so on and so forth. By aborting a fetus you kill the life it was to become, you kill the person it was to become. All the friendships, ideas, emotions, The person as a whole is gone. Then you destroy the whole line that person would of created. A whole line of people to come, destroyed. That is a lot of deaths before they even existed, and even if the person decides to not have children. They still have the affects, emotion and all i put above. Do you see what im saying? Abortion its self, even if you dont see the life alive until it comes out of the women's body, Is the murder of a person ,their emotions, ideas, life in general, and their children, so on and so forth, only stopped because of a selfish individual. Anyone should have a chance to live. I have not Degraded your argument, i have only debated with you. I have taken the non agressive stance. You, since the beginning, have attacked and attacked. Most of your statements have been agressive and volatile. I have read some of what you said around this post and you took the stance of the aggressor.

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MauEvig In reply to Treefelow [2013-02-08 18:05:14 +0000 UTC]

You said it yourself that the argument is opinion and moral based, and if that's the case you're basically appealing to emotion right now. Let me also point out that not aborting due to a should've would've could've stance is not a very valid argument. Let me demonstrate why: what if Adolf Hitler, Sadam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden, Stalen and other murderous dictators have been aborted? Think of all the lives that would have been saved? What if the guy who gun shot all those kids in connecticut had been aborted? See where I'm going with this? It can also very well have the opposite effect. I'm not saying women should abort because their child could be a murderer, and I'm not saying a woman should not abort becaues their could could end up curing cancer, aids and other things either. All I'm saying is that it's the woman's choice to do what she wants with her body.
Now as far as a legacy as concerned, I have cousins who have already had children, so there's no need for me to procreate. Funny how you would say "If the child chooses to procreate?" Again, you're making a lot of huge assumptions based on what ifs. Perhaps by aborting, I've already decided that I'm not going to procreate, so why should I wait for that same child to make the same decision? Furthermore, there's also absolutely no proof that the child will love me in return. That child I love, nurture and raise could turn out to think I'm a piece of crap. My family also has a history of emotional problems, so do you really think it's fair to bring a child into the world who could have the exact same problems with anxiety? But hey, why not contribute to the population that's already way over populated already when there's billions of children already alive that are starving to death, that I could adopt? I could accomplish the exact same thing by adoption, the only difference would be that they would not have my own DNA. I think it's selfish to have children just because of continuing my genetic code when there's really nothing special about it, heck especially if they suffer from some of the same mental issues myself, and most of my family have. So you see? I'm not being selfish by having an abortion, I'm actually saving this child from having a rough life that I cannot provide for them. As far as a line is concerned, well in evolutionary terms plenty of lines have been cut out, other lives have gone on. The world hasn't ended just because my genetic line has reached it's end, all genetic lines do eventually in one way or another.

Let's also address the murder subject again shall we? You said it's not a parasitic relationship, but let's also look into the actual facts behind pregnancy. A fetus takes nutriants away from the mother, and she gets rid of it's waste. It's literally attached to her body, and it causes problems like morning sickness, in some cases it also causes temporary diabetes. It causes fatigue, it weakens her, it causes her to gain weight. Taking a biological rather than an emotional stand point, this sounds like a parasitic relationship. Now suppose she doesn't want the fetus there? Or embroyo, depending on the stage of development. Are you saying that she should keep an invasive organism, human or not in her body just because the government says it's murder, even though it's taking away her vital nutriants without her permission? Now let's switch the scenario a bit. You said I wouldn't kill my neighbor correct? Of course I wouldn't, they aren't doing anything to harm me. But let's say someone decided to break into my home and attacks me, threatening to kill, perhaps rape, and steal my things? They're something I do not want in my home and they are being a threat to my health. So out of self defense I grab the nearest weapon against them,and stab them. According to the law, if you're being attacked in your own home, you have a right to defend yourself. Now, a woman might view the fetus like that attacker, and her body her "home" if you will, home to her life, her internal organs, her brain, lungs, heart etc. You're saying that a fetus has equal rights to that woman, even if she doesn't want it there. That's just like saying the attacker who has come into my home to harm me has the exact same rights that I do and that I should be charged for murder for defending myself.

I'm sorry you feel that my arguements have been aggressive, but you seem to have failed to answer some of my questions, such as what if the woman dies as a result of the pregnancy when an abortion could've saved her life? You said this life has a right to live, but it's simply not possible for both to have the same rights. A child under 18 doesn't even have the same rights as an adult 18 or older, so why would a fetus have the same rights as a living breathing adult? You've also not addressed the fact that women will still get abortions even if abortion is illegal, so are you saying that she shouldn't have a clean safe abortion and deserves to die because it's "murder" if she has an abortion? You also didn't address my comment about how a miscarriage would be considered manslaughter if abortion is considered murder, or how if a fetus has the same rights as a woman, the baby should be arrested if the birth results in the woman's death. Clearly, you don't seem to care about the woman at all, you only care about a potential life, and the potential lives it could sire or mother and so on. Maybe she didn't WANT to have an abortion, but if she didn't, she wouldn't be able to care for children she already has alive and is too poor to do so, or maybe that abortion could save her life so she can be there for children she already has. And if she doesn't want children, you have to consider her reasons why she wouldn't want them. Most women have pretty valid reasons for not wanting kids.


Now, you can feel free not to abort. I'm fine with that. I fail to see how that's an aggressive statement, or one of a personal attack. You are the one who said my arguements weren't intelligent and quick frankly, I take offense to that. I'm only being aggressive because I'm defending my position. I'm pro choice, not pro let's hold the woman down and force her to have an abortion. If you feel abortion is murder, don't abort, but don't make abortion illegal when it could save a woman's life, or perhaps a rape victim who didn't even want to be pregnant in the first place is now forced to relive the horror through that child. I for one think it's completely the woman's business why she aborts.

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MauEvig In reply to Treefelow [2013-01-17 17:57:41 +0000 UTC]

I wouldn't care because I would not exist. *shrugs*

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MauEvig In reply to Earthtalon [2012-12-28 21:52:54 +0000 UTC]

And the pro-lifers are not? You have any idea how annoying it is hearing all these guilt trips and emotional control over a damn parasite?
I've seen bumper stickers, bill boards and all kinds of propaganda offline, and I've seen ads right here on DA that are pro life that don't show any of the facts. If we've been a bunch of douches, then it's only because pro-lifers want to shove anti-abortion laws and propaganda down our throats. I rather be a douche than a control freak. Since pro lifers want to control what we do to our bodies, that is exactly what they are.

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Treefelow In reply to MauEvig [2013-02-06 16:18:37 +0000 UTC]

Facts
Anything could happen.

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MauEvig In reply to Ravens-of-Rome [2012-12-19 21:14:36 +0000 UTC]

Excuse me? What the hell does that have to do with anything?

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Ravens-of-Rome In reply to MauEvig [2012-12-19 22:05:01 +0000 UTC]

You seem angry (no offense). I think everything would better if we all just calmed down settled these kinds of arguments like civilized adults. It really gets on my nerves whenever people get so angry about something and start accusing others. I'm not talking about you, so please don't get mad at me...

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MauEvig In reply to Ravens-of-Rome [2012-12-19 22:07:27 +0000 UTC]

Who were you addressing then? I made the stamp after all.

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Ravens-of-Rome In reply to MauEvig [2012-12-19 22:08:43 +0000 UTC]

Just people in general. Sorry if you got offended...

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MauEvig In reply to Ravens-of-Rome [2012-12-19 22:10:39 +0000 UTC]

Oh sorry. I thought you were addressing me.

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Ravens-of-Rome In reply to MauEvig [2012-12-19 22:13:51 +0000 UTC]

No... Well...Have a merry Christmas~! (I guess...XD)

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MauEvig In reply to Ravens-of-Rome [2012-12-20 15:44:29 +0000 UTC]

Merry Christmas then!

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RockyGems In reply to SoulRaider116 [2013-05-18 08:15:57 +0000 UTC]

It's not a baby, it's not murder, Fourtheenth Amendment and parts of the Ninth.

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MauEvig In reply to SoulRaider116 [2012-10-07 03:48:47 +0000 UTC]

I'm sorry...where in the constitution does it say women should be forced to keep a parasite inside of body to grow in there and then split her vagina wide open and cause her bodily damage for the rest of her life?

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SoulRaider116 In reply to MauEvig [2012-10-08 01:55:03 +0000 UTC]

You need to learn the definition of a parasite.

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MauEvig In reply to SoulRaider116 [2012-10-10 00:12:13 +0000 UTC]

Oh I do do I? It most certainly couldn't be an organism that lives in a close relationship with it's host, dependent on it's host to function, AND doing the host bodily harm does it?

What does a fetus do? Let's see. It makes a woman fat, it is reliant upon the mother's body for survival, causes her morning sickness, makes her weak and fatiqued, makes her body vulnerable, creates pain in child birth, she feeds it nutriants and gets rid of it's wastes, can cause complications like diabetes or acid reflex...oh the list goes on and on...even in rare cases live child birth can result in death. Definitely sounds like a parasite for something that's allegedly not a parasite. To force a woman to carry it to term violates the rights to her own body. If it's something there that she doesn't want, then it's unconstitutional to make her keep it in her body.

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Ask-War In reply to BTIsaac [2012-04-16 05:42:40 +0000 UTC]

I believe this is about the United States, and I believe you know that as well.

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BTIsaac In reply to Ask-War [2012-04-16 11:10:55 +0000 UTC]

Yes, and in countries where "pro life" is not unconstitutional, it's the constitution that's anti-democratic, right?

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Ask-War In reply to BTIsaac [2012-04-16 13:30:16 +0000 UTC]

Does it honestly even matter?

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steinhakasei In reply to DragonFang01 [2012-03-06 05:46:24 +0000 UTC]

Exactly!

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DragonFang01 In reply to steinhakasei [2012-03-06 20:09:34 +0000 UTC]

Glad to see someone agrees with the minority

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steinhakasei In reply to DragonFang01 [2012-03-07 04:23:00 +0000 UTC]

I actually find anti choice to be in the minority.

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DragonFang01 In reply to steinhakasei [2012-03-07 04:25:33 +0000 UTC]

You sure? Virtually everyone in the bible belt and religious dominated areas like Utah seems to be more concerned with destroying the practice of choice.

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steinhakasei In reply to DragonFang01 [2012-03-07 14:01:46 +0000 UTC]

Most of the people I know and talk to, even if they are pro life support the choice for others. I think the pro life just has a tendency to congregate and make them seem more abundant.

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